Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

The second section across the central White Mountains - crossing a wild and remote area between Livada mitato and the plateau of Niato. The most difficult part is the contouring of Kastro mountain
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Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von admin »

Hallo zusammen,
mit etwas Verspätung kommt hier ein Kurzbericht über das Aufstellen der Stangen am Kastro:
Wir haben uns – nachdem wir (leider teilweise in einem Gewitter) nachmittags zu zweit einen Großteil des Weges erkundet und provisorische Stangen aus Äste platziert hatten – am 13. Mai abends auf der Tavri Hütte mit Manos vom EOS Chania sowie Leonidas, der Erfahrung mit dem Aufstellen der Stangen mitbrachte sowie weiteren 4 Arbeitern getroffen. Es gab Pilafi, Fleisch und Salat – alles in riesigen Mengen zum späten Abendessen.
Nach einer etwas kurzen Nacht ging es dann am 14. Mai trotz leichten Regens los – 16 Stangen waren im Auto verpackt, etliche Kilos an Beton sowie Wasserkanister. Am Anfang des Weges in Katastromeno hatte der Regen dann schon fast aufgehört; es war noch kühl. Wir trugen alle was möglich war und holten nach einem Stück noch weiteres Material nach, so dass wir alle mehr oder weniger zusammen bleiben konnten. So arbeiteten wir uns nach und nach hoch: Leonidas schlug die Löcher und betonierte, die anderen transportierten die Stangen und das Material weiter: Eine Stange zu tragen, das ging ganz gut. Aber zwei waren dann doch wegen der Balance nicht ganz ohne. Und dann noch einen schweren Rucksack auf dem Rücken! Mittags gegen 15:00 Uhr waren wir relativ nah am Koutalas Seli angekommen und haben die letzten Stangen verbaut. Es gab eine große Mittagspause mit Brot, Dosenfleisch, richtigem Fleisch, Oliven, Käse und natürlich eigenem Wein! Zu dieser Zeit war es auch ein wenig schwül geworden. Wir hatten aber ziemliches Glück: Im Großen und Ganzen mussten wir nicht übermäßig schwitzen.
Einige der Arbeiter waren – wegen der ungewohnten Umgebung und der Anstrengung – nicht mehr fit und wir beschlossen, diese wieder nach unten zu schicken. Wir (Manos, Johanna und ich) sind dann noch in die Mavroi Lakkoi gelaufen, um nach der Quelle Vryssali zu suchen – wir haben sie dieses Mal auch endlich gefunden, nach gut eineinhalb Stunden Fußmarsch. Auf dem Rückweg kamen wir dann leider auch in ein Gewitter und einen ordentlichen Regenschauer. Nach knapp 12 h waren wir dann wieder zurück und wurden um 7 Uhr abends von Leonidas abgeholt und zur Tavri Hütte gebracht. Abends wurde dann groß gegrillt: Tonnenweise Brizoles und etliche Loukanika, Brot, Oliven, Käse, Salat und natürlich Wein. Ziemlich müde ging es dann nach Mitternacht in den Schlafsack.
Am Sonntag war das Wetter morgens nicht besonders gut. Es regnete, als wir gegen 7:30 Uhr in Katastromeno losgingen. Doch wieder hatten wir relativ viel Glück: Bis kurz vor Koutalas Seli war das Wetter in Ordnung. Wir kamen mit den 8 Stangen ganz gut voran. Einige wurden unterwegs verbaut, die meisten dann oben, so dass diese nun bis Koutalas Lakkos (Doline „hinter“ dem Koutalas Seli) reichen. Gleichzeitig haben wir die E4-Schilder angeschraubt. Leider hat es und dann kurz vor Koutalas Seli erwischt: Heftiger Regen, heftiger Wind und auch noch Hagel machten das Arbeiten an den letzten 4 bis 5 Stangen nicht sehr angenehm. Aber wir haben durchgehalten, sind von der Hüfte abwärts klatschnass und mit Schuhen, die wirklich bis zum Rande mit Wasser vollgelaufen waren, abgestiegen. Nicht die ganze Zeit war das Wetter dann so schlimm – aber am Kastro plätscherten wirklich Bäche zu Tal. Die letzte Stange wurde dann bei Katastromeno gesetzt – insgesamt wurden also 25 Stück verbaut.
Am Nachmittag des Sonntags sind wir dann, mit Zwischenstopp in Askifou, nach Chania runtergefahren – etwas müde, aber zufrieden.
Nun fehlt also noch das Schild am Anfang – dieses bringt der EOS in den nächsten Wochen noch an. Die Stangen sind durch GPS Wegpunkte dokumentiert, die wir auf dem Rückweg aufgezeichnet haben. Der Weg ist ebenso dokumentiert – auch auf der Anavasi Karte, die demnächst neu erscheint. Ein paar Farbmarkierungen könnte man noch anbringen (war dieses Mal wegen des Wetters unmöglich).
Ich wünsche euch schöne Wanderungen auf dem „neuen“ Weg. Ganz herzlichen Dank für Eure Unterstützung – das ist nicht selbstverständlich, und es haben sich alle sehr darüber gefreut. Es ist durchaus noch ein ansehnlicher Betrag übrig – trotz guter Entlohnung für die Arbeiter; diesen verwahre ich für ein nächstes Projekt (Vorschläge?!).
Kalo dromo wünschen der EOS Chania, Manos, Leonidas, Johanna und Simon

Short english version:
Hello everybody,
here is a short report about placing the poles on Kastro:
The marking of the path - that means placing the new poles, pouring concrete around and screwing the signs to the poles - was successful. We had explored the area on Friday afternoon - unfortunately, we faced a thunderstorm when we started our descent. During this trip, we placed some "provisional poles" (branchesof trees). Later in the evening, around 10 p.m., we met Manos from the EOS Chania as well as Leonidas (who was experienced in placing poles in the mountains as he had done this when the original poles were placed) and four co-workers in the Tavri refuge. We had pilafi, meat and salad (in huge quantities) as well as home-produced wine for dinner.
After a short night and despite some rain, we started at Katastromeno around 7:30 am on Saturday morning: 16 bars were packed into the car, several kilos of concrete as well as some (filled!) water containers. When we left from Katastromeno, the rain stopped quite soon; it was still cool. We carried lots of material - after having gained some height, we went back to take even more. After that we started to approach the next section of the path. This strategy allowed us to stay together. We gradually gained height: Leonidas placed the poles and poured the concrete; the others carried the poles and the material further up: carrying one pole was 'easy'. Taking two was definitely more difficult due to the imbalance caused - and not to forget the heavy backpack! Lunch was around 3 pm. when we arrived relatively close to Koutalas Seli. There was bread, canned meat, proper meat, olives, cheese and of course home-made wine! At that time, it had also become a little muggy. But we were quite lucky: During the whole ascent, we did not have to sweat excessively.
Some of the workers were - because of the difficult terrain and the effort - no longer fit and we decided to send them back. We (Manos, Johanna and I) then walked towards the Mavroi Lakkoi to search for Vryssali spring - we finally succeeded in locating it this time, after a one and a half hour walk. On the way back we unfortunately faced a thunderstorm and decent rain. After almost 12 hours we were back at Katastromeno and were picked up at 7 pm by Leonidas who took us back to Tavri with his car. Dinner was excessive again (barbecue this time!): tons of brizoles (chops) and several loukanika (sausages), bread, olives, cheese, lettuce and of course wine. We were really tired and went to bed after midnight.
On Sunday morning the weather was not particularly good. It was raining when we left from Katastromeno at 7:30 am. Again, we were quite lucky: Until Koutalas Seli the weather was acceptable (just some rain). We did well with the last 8 poles. Most of these had to be placed in the upper section and now mark the path to Koutalas Lakkos (sinkhole "behind" Koutalas Seli). During the ascent, we also screwed the E4 signs to the poles. Unfortunately, shortly before Koutalas Seli, we had heavy rain, strong wind and even hail. This made the work on the last 4 to 5 poles slightly unpleasant. But we did it! We walked down towards the road soakingly wet and with shoes that were actually filled with water. On Kastro, we could really see streams between the rocks! The last pole was then set at Katastromeno - a total of 25 pieces were placed.
In the afternoon of Sunday we went to Chania - a bit tired, but satisfied.
The poles are documented by GPS waypoints that we recorded on the way back. The path is well documented, too - it will be shown in the Anavasi map that will soon be edited.
Thanks a lot for your contributions - there is still some money left for other projects!!!

Kalo dromo - Have a good walk! Best wishes from the EOS Chania, Manos, Leonidas, Johanna and Simon
Kastro1.jpg
Kastro2.jpg
Kastro3.jpg
Kastro4.jpg
Kastro5.jpg

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

In the last 2 pictures (at the up side), as I said in the other post, we see, VERY WELL, that you could paint marks on the ground rather than put those uggly poles! In conclusion: BAD JOB, WITH NO RESPECT FOR THE NATURE AND HIS BEAUTIFULL LANDSCAPE! I am not suprise that Nature returns you its anger against you! It's a shame!

kokkinos vrachos
Beiträge: 203
Registriert: 5. September 2013, 14:56
Wohnort: Hamburg

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von kokkinos vrachos »

Moin Simon, freut mich das alles geklappt hat, auch wenn das Wetter nicht so mitgespielt hat.

Leider konnte ich bei diesem tollen Projekt nicht helfen, bei mir hat es sich mit unserer Wanderung auf der Etführungsroute überschnitten. Man kann sich ja leider nicht teilen.

Fettes Lob noch mal an dieser Stelle an alle die bei dem Projekt geholfen haben.

vg, kv
„Ich hoffe nichts, ich fürchte nichts, ich bin frei.“
Nikos Kazantzakis

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

I hope that this """project""" was in respet of greek laws!

GerdHH
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Registriert: 8. Mai 2008, 17:36
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Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von GerdHH »

Mike123 hat geschrieben:In the last 2 pictures (at the up side), as I said in the other post, we see, VERY WELL, that you could paint marks on the ground rather than put those uggly poles! In conclusion: BAD JOB, WITH NO RESPECT FOR THE NATURE AND HIS BEAUTIFULL LANDSCAPE! I am not suprise that Nature returns you its anger against you! It's a shame!
There are arguments for (durability, visibility in bad weather) and against (disturbing nature, attract shooters) poles, but they have been the traditional E4 waymarking for dozens of years. The crew did a great task to renew the rotten poles (and actually move them back to the traditonal trail). As far as I understood them, they did it together with EOS, so it's perfectly OK.

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

Hi Gerd,

“poles have been the traditional E4 waymarking for dozens of years”

Maybe, but they have always been accompanied by cairns and/or painted marks, tracking the (mono-)path. A pole does NOT have the same role than a painted mark or cairn. We will mainly use a pole to indicate the direction of the path due to his “visibility” in a long distance. Of course, we will try to put, as much as possible, close to the mono-path self (helping the tracking – specifically in stony ground), but due to the fact that it should be visible from far away, be possible to fix it on the ground, there are poles which are placed few meters away from the mono-path’s track. In the opposite, painted marks and cairns are used to really track the mono-path (there are more painted marks/cairns along the mono-path). These are their role.
Some example:
- From Katsiveli to Roussies, (1,5 hours trip on a rugged and varied terrain with zigzags – which could justify some poles): I don’t remember have seen any pole during my trek. If they exist, they should be between 1 to 3 max and discreet! But as far as I know, nobody lost his way, no missing person signalled!
- From Roussies to Pachnes (1 hour trip with zigzags): NO POLES at all, nobody lost his way, no missing person signalled! 10 years ago, they were even no (or very few) painting marks and I could go to the Pachnes summit just helped by the exiting cairns and the track of the path self on the ground!
- From Katsiveli to Livada (1 hour trip - rugged and varied terrain): few poles mainly around Katsiveli refuge and Livada mitato, no pole in between (or 1 or 2 max discreet)
- From Livada mitato to Koutala Seli (4 hours trip on a very rugged and varied terrain with zigzags and quite difficult) : less than 20 poles!!! But many of them may be justified due to the terrain profile.
- Etc… I can enumerate others example. In general, till now, I did not have to complain about the poles in Lefka Ori, they are either discreet or indispensable and 80 to 90% are justified. We could discuss about the painted marks or cairns to clarify a bit the tracks.

Here, in our concerned case of marking the “old-path” (become new E4), the poles have been used like painted marks (26!!!!!) for a less than 2 hours trip in an almost (3/4 of the path) straight away mono-path along the mountainside! They (EOS + Simon Admin) OVERUSED poles for that mono-path, destroying the landscape! So many poles ARE NOT JUSTIFIED! I know very well the path and a large part of the path has the ideal ground to put painted mark or better alternate a painted mark with cairns (which are already present), and with 5 or 6 poles maximum could justified to help marking this “old path” (in the down section close to the trees), not more.

Mentioning EOS as a “reference” is not the best to do and protect behind them against the criticism on how that “project” has been managed! EOS did not even know the existence of this “old path”, which is already a proof of their ignorance! The non-study neophyte manner they marked the “old path” is a second proof of their ignorance. They really need to read “Marking a mono-path for dummies”.



Cheers

christoforos
Beiträge: 3
Registriert: 31. Januar 2015, 19:04

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von christoforos »

Dear Mike123
Criticism in good spirit is always welcome by the openminded. But in your case i believe is not in that good spirit. I consider calling in public a local mountaineering club ignorant and not knowing their mountains just because you dont like poles is at very least insulting and as a member of the EOS i am also offended. Maybe i should remind you that they all work voluntarily including the admin who we consider a friend and member for all his work and effort for our birthplace.
About your previous post about greek laws. Any action of EOS is always under the standards of the Hellenic associaton of climbing and mountaineering wich happens to be member of the UIAA.
So in conclusion feel free to apply criticism insult free.
With friendly regards Christoforos

PS1. Since you mentioned it Katsiveli-Rousies-Pachnes is not on the official E4 trail.
PS2. This project gives a safer way out of the mountains and the path is known for many years now so we are thankfull to all the donators

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

Since EOS changed the official E4 from top of Kastro to this "old path" to cross from west to east the Lefka Ori, what will happen with existing poles on top of Kastro (becoming the old E4)? Will EOS remove them or abandon them? What are the UIAA standard for this?

Interesting to know the official EOS answer!

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

Christoforos,

“PS1. Since you mentioned it Katsiveli-Rousies-Pachnes is not on the official E4 trail.”

I’ve never pretended the contrary. I just want to point out that, whenever E4 path or not, poles are NOT indispensable for people to find their way.

And no, I don’t like poles when they are not justified because they disturb the natural landscape precious for trekkers, and as I said I gave you the way you should have marked that path. I copy/paste again for you as it seems you have been blinded by my critics and omit some parts:

“Here, in our concerned case of marking the “old-path” (become new E4), the poles have been used like painted marks (26!!!!!) for a less than 2 hours trip in an almost (3/4 of the path) straight away mono-path along the mountainside! They (EOS + Simon Admin) OVERUSED poles for that mono-path, destroying the landscape! So many poles ARE NOT JUSTIFIED! I know very well the path and a large part of the path has the ideal ground to put painted mark or better alternate a painted mark with cairns (which are already present), and with 5 or 6 poles maximum could justified to help marking this “old path” (in the down section close to the trees), not more.”


I would like also to remind you that in the E4 part between Omalos and Koutala Seli, 80% of the marks are painted marks. Are there painted marks not in the standard “of the Hellenic associaton of climbing and mountaineering wich happens to be member of the UIAA”?
If they are well recognized, why the painted marks have not been used to mark the “old-path” and you only exclusively used poles?


If you are offended as a member of EOS, feel free to resign your EOS membership so that you easily fix your issue. I don’t have to sorry about that, especially to an organization who destroyed the environment.

brian
Beiträge: 16
Registriert: 27. Februar 2013, 00:21
Wohnort: Cumbria. UK

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von brian »

I'd just like to say a big thank you to all involved in the new path marking, I very much appreciate all your hard work and effort.

robo

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alfbertz
Beiträge: 9
Registriert: 8. August 2011, 12:48
Wohnort: London (UK) - Torino (IT)

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von alfbertz »

Many thanks to all the people involved in the works also from me and my wife Monica.

Our last hike in Crete a few weeks ago was along that very bit of E4, we were eager to see the new section on the ancient path. We have walked extensively in Lefka Ori for many years, mostly out of the usual routes, and never considered the black and yellow poles as particularly obtrusive, especially in view of what Simon has already pointed out about safety and purpose.

Tchüss!
Alf

Soer
Beiträge: 3
Registriert: 11. April 2012, 13:36

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Soer »

Was für ein bedauernswerter Geselle, der hier so ein Problem mit der neuen Wegmarkierung hat !

Ich liebe Kreta, ich liebe die weißen Berge und nirgendwo passt der Spruch besser als hier: "Der Weg ist das Ziel !" Aber man muss ihn halt erst Mal finden und das ist in den weißen Bergen ja nicht immer einfach.

Ich habe diese Strecke bisher gescheut, da ich schon befürchtete, dass wir uns des öfteren versteigen - und bei begrenzter Kondition und Wasservorräten sollte das halt nicht zu oft sein. Insofern freu ich mich unglaublich, nun bald erstmals diese Strecke zu gehen und bin sehr dankbar, dass Simon und Konsorten die Markierung in Angriff genommen haben- herzlichsten Dank dafür !!

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

I took the first time in Augustus 2016 this new E4 - "old" path after this "project" from Koutala Seli to Niato direction! And at my big suprise, mostly everything I explained before (without even have seen the prioject in reality) is consistent and real on the ground!
I took a lot of criticisms about the way this project has been done, and I will come in a near future explain all the bad things and the alternative.
So, I keep the same mood with this project very badly done!! It's a destruction of the cretan nature ... it's a shame!!

Tours
Beiträge: 65
Registriert: 29. Juli 2014, 21:33

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Tours »

@Mike123
Mike, I am very interested in some more information why you are so upset about this new marked path. It would be very nice if you could explain it a bit more detailed. Right now I am very unsure about your intensions. For the moment it is hard to understand why 26 poles are a destruction of cretan nature.Even (and of course) it depends on the diameter….

Best regards,
Andreas

Mike123
Beiträge: 10
Registriert: 26. Mai 2016, 16:09

Re: Wegmarkierung fertig / Waymarking completed

Beitrag von Mike123 »

@Andreas,

I will do it, probably next week-end. There are so much to say that I prefer to do it at once ... so I need a lot of free-time! I took videos with my comments for almost all the poles, I need first to view them again, and summerize the whole crap!

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