New markings and "New" path on Kastro

The second section across the central White Mountains - crossing a wild and remote area between Livada mitato and the plateau of Niato. The most difficult part is the contouring of Kastro mountain
kokkinos vrachos
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von kokkinos vrachos » 22. Oktober 2015, 20:53

Moin, habe mich gerade mit Michael (MichPaule) über das Projekt ausgetauscht, haben uns in Komitades getroffen.

Nach den Beschreibungen von Michael sehe ich die praktische Umsetzung mit Stangen bei den Gegebenheiten für sehr schwer umsetzbar.

Ich würde gemauerte und gestapelte große Steinquader vorschlagen. Habe mal richtig schöne auf einer Sporaden-Insel gesehen.

Wenn es bei mir zeitlich passt würde ich bei dem Projekt vor Ort mithelfen. Finanziell kann ich leider nichts dazu bei steuern.

vg aus Komitades, kv (habe in deutsch geschrieben, da mein englisch nicht so gut ist)
„Nur wo du zu Fuß warst, bist du auch wirklich gewesen.”

J. W. Goethe

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von admin » 23. Oktober 2015, 08:33

Hallo zusammen,

das Projekt ist bei mir etwas ins Hintertreffen geraten.
Wir werden schon Stangen setzen müssen, sonst laufen wir Gefahr, dass man nicht die notwendigen, von weiten sichtbaren Wegweiser hat. Ich war jetzt schon mehrmals am Kastro, und das Wetter gestaltet sich oft schwierig, so dass man das Maximum an Sichtbarkeit gewährleisten muss. Die Stangen existieren wohl schon auf Kreta, das habe ich bei einem Freund vom EOS herausgefunden. Alles übrige ist derzeit noch zu klären.

Gruß
Simon

kokkinos vrachos
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von kokkinos vrachos » 28. Oktober 2015, 15:14

Moin Simon, du kennst die Gegebenheiten vor Ort natürlich besser.

Große aufgeschichtete Steinquader kann man auch von weiten sehen, man kann sie auch noch anmalen. Steinmännchen sind ja auch immer hilfreich bei Wanderungen auf Kreta.

An welchen Monat denkst du denn mit der Umsetzung der Stangen?

vg aus Chania, kv
„Nur wo du zu Fuß warst, bist du auch wirklich gewesen.”

J. W. Goethe

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admin
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von admin » 28. Oktober 2015, 16:29

Hi kv,

das Problem am Kastro ist, dass es sich um eine große Felsfläche mit relativ wenigen losen Steinen darauf handelt. Schichten ist also schwierig. Steinmännchen an sich kann man noch zusätzlich aufstellen, kleine eben als Zwischenmarkierung.
Ich denke mal, das muss man ab Mitte/Ende Mai (je nach Schneelage) angehen. Vorher liegt am Kastro in diesem Bereich garantiert noch Schnee.

Viele Grüße
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von GerdHH » 12. November 2015, 11:10

The "old" path looks very good. I love old paths; don't they condense the wisdom of generations? ;-)

But I would strongly recommend to coordinate these things with EOS or whomever might be responsible for the E4. And of course, I would buy everything in Greece.

In Norway the practical work is done by "dugnadsgrupper" - enthusiasts that are supported (and guided) by the mountain club. On http://fjellturlag.no/dugnadsgruppen you can see them at work and details of their equipment. Something like that could be fun in the Levka Ori too, maybe announced as an multi-national EOS Event "One week working in the mountains". And for the money I would recommend "crowd funding".

Gerd

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von admin » 12. November 2015, 13:13

Hi Gerd,

yes, I am already in contact with the EOS. They already have poles.
We now need to coordinate when "we" (EOS; friends; etc.) go up there and what we need (cars, concrete, water, etc.). I have written to a friend in Chania and we will discuss (and prepare a calculation) this in early February when I get to Crete again. Afterwards, I will post my request for donations here!

Best wishes
Simon

Mike123
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von Mike123 » 26. Mai 2016, 16:41

Hi,

Why do you need poles for this path and complicate the things? Using some painted marks should be quite easy and enough as there is plenty possibilities to mark. The path itself is not too complicated to request poles, the actual cairns are enough. The first time I took this old path from Koutala Seli to Niato, I didn't even know it existed and I still managed, you just need to smoothly go down following a natural walk in the easiest part of the path and that's it.

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MichPaule
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von MichPaule » 26. Mai 2016, 20:51

Hi Mike123,
I'm wondering why your very first posting - right after registering to this forum - is full of criticism and ignorance.
At least to me it seems so. :cry:
If you don't need well-marked paths then just ignore the presence of these maybe 20 poles: They have not been erected for you.
Many other walkers welcome the clear marking which helps to make the way a little bit more safe and secure.
Not always you have weather conditions allowing you to spot tiny color marks or cairns far away.
If you ever managed to get out safely from such a situation you will know what I'm talking about.
The poles could make the difference between a wonderful experience and a doomed fate.
For advanced hikers like you there are plenty of unmarked and untrodden paths available in the Levka Ori.
Feel free to avoid the ordinary E4 paths! :mrgreen:
SCNR
Michael

Mike123
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von Mike123 » 26. Mai 2016, 22:39

Mich,

I don't see why I should not directly comment after my subscription in the forum? Is it a rule?

Secondly, no, I don't like so much poles, these metalic tube that mostly half of them, in the White Mountains, are down the ground due to wind or whatever else. I am wondering their real interet in some parts and very not efficient in ecological point of view, specifically when requesting ... an helicopter, By the way, what about the poles which are down or broken, are you also going to bring back by helicopter?

If you want to mark a path, please use the natural stones and make cairns (big if you want in the critical points) or eventually use paint marks. This is also a mark of respect in a foreign country. I don't think you will apreciate if I come to your mountains and start planting metalic tube just to facilitate some, often badly equiped, to find the path. Use a GPS, even from your smartphone, this is what I did, and now no GPS need or rarely or when I am in the fog like in certain period going from Livada to Volikas refuge ... poles are no help in those conditions.

Please, respect the nature and leave it as you found it, as if you even didn't pass by there. This is what I apply and more.

Thanks for your understanding.

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von admin » 30. Mai 2016, 07:40

Hi Mike,

I agree that painted marking and cairns are often sufficient. Here, we have a totally different situation:
First of all, we are on a European long distance path that should definitely be marked as good as possible. Additionally, I do not agree that the path is not complicated - maybe it is not complicated for you but for people who walk there for the first time (as many long distance walkers will do) and for people that are not very experienced. Few people were even aware of the existence of this path. And there were virtually no cairns in the upper section. On the Kastro slopes, cairns can easily be taken away by snow, wind and rain.
Second, we are in an area where fog and clouds appear quite often. In this weather, poles help much more than painted waymarkings. The latter also help but have to be very frequent if you use them as a guide (I have been in the area two times in poor weather and was happy to have the poles from Livadha to Koutalas Seli). The poles are definitely the only solution for winter 'expeditions'.
Third: We did not use a helicopter but took anything we needed up from Katastromeno on our back. If you are talking about ecology: How do you get to Crete? And what about the colour? Sorry, I respect your position but this point sounds definitely strange. Fourth: The poles were erected by the help and under supervision of the EOS Chania. This was clearly stated - why do you criticize this project in a way that "foreigners put poles in a foreign country"?
And last but not least: I have done the coloured waymarks from Livadha to Koutalas Seli. Of course, I have realized that there are some broken poles. I have tried to erect them which is definitely possible by the means of big rocks. There is no need to remove them.

That's all for the moment.
Best wishes
Simon

Mike123
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von Mike123 » 30. Mai 2016, 11:44

Hi Simon Admin,

My point of view:


1) "First of all, we are on a European long distance path that should definitely be marked as good as possible."

- Which is already the case, with the official E4 path on top of Kastro! But, I admit that the "old path" would be the best and easiest path to connect Niato (end of the road) and Koutala Seli (that lasted me 2 hours in downhill). Specifically in Winter, but not only as snow is often lasting till May and become an ice floe, which is dangerous to cross without crampons, at an altitude above 1800m. The "old path" fixes this.


2) "Additionally, I do not agree that the path is not complicated - maybe it is not complicated for you but for people who walk there for the first time (as many long distance walkers will do) and for people that are not very experienced. Few people were even aware of the existence of this path. And there were virtually no cairns in the upper section. On the Kastro slopes, cairns can easily be taken away by snow, wind and rain."


- As I said, I managed to find the path when I did the first time in a natural going down walk, also helped by the cairns (personally, I did more than 10 times the trip and the cairns seem to be always present, even though, sometimes, I had to add 1 or 2 stone in some cairns). From Koutala Seli (on the upper section), that is the easiest as the path is going like a "funnel", difficult to go out of the path (the track is well visible on the ground)! Then, the path continue in a natural mountainside intersection (like many path in White mountains) between a big rock plate (where you can put all the painted marks) and a smoother part (where you walk). So, for me, poles are not necessary in this section (3/4 of the path), in the contrary, they will damage the natural landscape.
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3) "we are in an area where fog and clouds appear quite often. In this weather, poles help much more than painted waymarkings. The latter also help but have to be very frequent if you use them as a guide (I have been in the area two times in poor weather and was happy to have the poles from Livadha to Koutalas Seli). The poles are definitely the only solution for winter 'expeditions'."

- From Livada to Koutala Seli, you are not in the same altitude/topography than in the mountainside downhill “old path” from Livada to Niato. As, I said above, painted marks are really sufficient. Yes, we need more painted marks than poles. And then? I fully disagree with you when saying that poles are better than painted marks during fog. In the contrary, as you have more painted marks, there are the only you can see in a shorted visible distance (poles are in the … fog). But, indeed, in a snowy land, poles are the only visible, but that did not concern the “old path” for the reason I explained.

4) "If you are talking about ecology: How do you get to Crete? And what about the colour? Sorry, I respect your position but this point sounds definitely strange."

- Please, spare me such arguments! Being an ecologist doesn’t mean that we will never use plastic, or emitting CO2 (which is, by the way, good for life on Earth, the excess is bad). Talk about "ecological footprint" or "carbon footprint", which are very low in my case: no car, no renting car in Crete, walking a lot –that’s also why I am trekking/hiking (subject of the forum I think?)- consuming less than 1000 kWh/year of electricity, less than 10m3/year water, etc… So, I think I can take the plane to go to Crete with clear conscience!!!

5) "The poles were erected by the help and under supervision of the EOS Chania. This was clearly stated - why do you criticize this project in a way that "foreigners put poles in a foreign country"?"

- Because I read it here, and the idea seems to come from here. EOS is mainly trying to satisfy the "foreign" request, and that annoys me. If you look at the last Anavasi maps for Lefka Ori, you will see plenty new tracks. I don’t want all of them to be savagely marked. If you like Lefka Ori mountains, this is also your role to try to preserve what has been preserved for centuries.

6) "And last but not least: I have done the coloured waymarks from Livadha to Koutalas Seli. Of course, I have realized that there are some broken poles. I have tried to erect them which is definitely possible by the means of big rocks. There is no need to remove them."

- Great, and when you will walk in Lefka Ori, you will probably not remark what I have done, because what I do, few see that, it’s like invisible.

Cheers

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MichPaule
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

Beitrag von MichPaule » 31. August 2016, 09:21

Hello,
my wife and I did the walk on 12.08.2016 starting from Ammoudari at 7:45 and finally arriving at Katsiveli at 21:00.
The walk was exhausting (20.5 km with 2500 height meters) but terrific!
The new markings with the poles were easy to follow and helped us a lot: The team did a great job! :D
On the following part west of Koutalás I missed the poles a lot.
Sometimes the path was not quite obvious and we had to search for painted marks which were not always easy to spot.
Intentionally I didn't look at my GPS because I wanted to get a feeling about the path quality.
Nevertheless on few occasions I had to consult it because we had drifted off the proper way after missing a paint mark.
Others would have needed to go back to the last known-good location and search from there for the next way mark - losing precious time!
My wish would be to use the remaining collected money to enhance the path marking between Koutalás and Askyfiótikos Sorós.
Best regards
Michael

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