New markings and "New" path on Kastro

The second section across the central White Mountains - crossing a wild and remote area between Livada mitato and the plateau of Niato. The most difficult part is the contouring of Kastro mountain
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New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Hello everybody,

Colin and myself, we have improved the waymarkings from Livadha to Kastro (Koutalas Seli) in early June. The path should now definitely be walkable without major difficulties. There are lots of waymarks, and - as the weather was extremely bad - even the old waymarks that I placed/painted in 2009 / 2010 were already helpful.
What is now missing is the section between Koutalas Seli and Niato / Katastromeno. And why is it missing? First as we ran out of time, second as the weather was very bad (visibility almost zero) and third (and most important) as the E4 path on the Kastro is not the final goal. What does this mean? I talked to Cretan friends (members of the EOS), and they told me that it would be better to mark the old path which runs across the slopes of Kastro instead of climbing the eastern ridge.
I have now added a photograph showing Kastro. Blue is the 'path' in the Kako Kastelli valley, green is the current E4. Red is the old, original shepherds' path. Most of the red path is clearly visible but a short section (before it gets to Katastromeno cistern) is not clear in the satellite image. It would be helpful if anyone who has already walked it could confirm it!
The plan: The E4 will soon be moved to the old path. This means: The poles still stay on the upper path as it is shown on the maps but they will not be renovated any more and will be removed in a few years. There will be new poles on the old path as well as new signs. I will try to organize poles and will at least pay for some of them, if not all. I must admit that I do not have an idea about the costs but I am sure that more people will - if it is necessary - donate. I assume that we might need a helicopter taking up the poles to Koutalas Seli (and it would maybe make sense to take some more up towards Askifiotikos Soros). This might also cost quite a lot. Finally, I am sure that it needs a few workers to go up there to carry and place the poles.
What do you think about this plan?

Best wishes
Simon
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Kastro.jpg

rob
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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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hi simon,
congratulations for the hard work of improving/redoing the waypoints from livada to koutala seli.it surely will be helpful for many hikers.i always had trouble understanding why the e4 route goes half way up fanari and then traverses downwards on scree to koutala seli.so i thought of looking for a more logical route via the northwest flank/face of fanari and was surprised to find an old footpath also marked with cairns every now and then!clearly the old (red) footpath in your photo.the track goes to loutsolaki and then onwards to koutala seli.this is the gps track of the route:

http://el.wikiloc.com/wikiloc/view.do?id=3428357

1.as can be seen in the gps route i had trouble finding the track at the start but the return is right on track
2.its clear i didnt stop at koutala seli but continued up to akrotirianos peak 2070m.
video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAahWpcbZBs
3.some photos that might help
a.jpg
b.jpg
c.jpg
d.jpg
e.jpg
f.jpg
g.jpg
h.jpg
i.jpg
j.jpg
k.jpg
l.jpg
m.jpg
n.jpg
o.jpg

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Hi Rob,

thank you for your comprehensive answer. It is very good to know that the path which is clearly visible in Google Earth is also clearly existent in nature!
The length is 3200 m approximately. To have a pole every 150 m would mean ca. 20 poles for this section (and maybe another additional poles for the section between Askifiotikos and Koutalas Seli).
Do you have an idea about the costs of a stable pole?

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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admin hat geschrieben:I will try to organize poles and will at least pay for some of them, if not all. I must admit that I do not have an idea about the costs but I am sure that more people will - if it is necessary - donate. I assume that we might need a helicopter taking up the poles to Koutalas Seli (and it would maybe make sense to take some more up towards Askifiotikos Soros). This might also cost quite a lot. Finally, I am sure that it needs a few workers to go up there to carry and place the poles.
Hi Simon,
great plan!
You can count on me when it comes to donate and work. :)
Kind regards

Michael

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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hi simon,im afraid i have no idea of how much the poles for signposting would cost or where to get them or even who was/is responsible fo the E4 signposting already in place...if i get any info ill let you know

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Hi Michael,

when will you be in Anopoli again? I am not sure if I will manage it very soon as we have renovation works at university. Therefore I don't know if I can leave from here very easily.

Hi Rob,
OK, thanks. The EOS is in principle responsible for waymarking. I have friends in the club, and they will surely support the whole waymarking project. I thought it would be a good idea to get a rough estimation about the costs before finally contacting them.

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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admin hat geschrieben:when will you be in Anopoli again? I am not sure if I will manage it very soon as we have renovation works at university. Therefore I don't know if I can leave from here very easily.
Hi Simon,
I will be there from 12.10. to 09.11. but we really should plan this for next year to have good weather conditions. :wink:
Best wishes
Michael

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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That's maybe true.... ;-) November is already too late, and I have courses in October. :-(

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Hello all together

If Your planning (timing) for 2016 will come closer, let me know. Maybe I can help.

Regards
Matthias
Wer Schreibfehler findet, darf sie behalten ;)

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Damned, can't get it out of my head... :oops:

Does anybody have dimensions of the poles (length and diameter)?
My guess is 3 m long with a diameter of 50 mm.
At least 50 cm will be buried into the ground (using concrete?).

There are (at least) two types of poles:
1) Zinc coated steel pipes (1,5" 48,3 x 3,25 mm, 3,83 kg/m), 6,50 €/m
2) Anodized aluminium pipes (AlMgSi0,5 F22, Eloxiert E6/EV1 50 x 2 mm, 0,85 kg/m), 9,00 €/m
Both types will have to be painted in yellow/black to get the desired attraction.

Weight comparison for 20 poles with 3 m length:
1) 230 kg => Surely will need a helicopter
2) 51 kg => Transport by foot possible

I'd favor the aluminium pipes although they are a bit more expensive.
Does anyone know the costs of a helicopter air fare?
What are your opinions?
Best regards

Michael

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Hello everybody,

there is a helicopter service in Chersonnisos: https://www.helialpha.com . They have already worked for the EOS (when they renovated the Tripiti mitato). We could ask them to provide us a quote.
The prices of the poles are not too high. 20 poles of the aluminium style with a length of 2 / 3 m would make 360 / 540 Euros. Plus the signs but they will surely be provided by the EOS. We could carry them up from Niato. This is definitely possible if the weigh around 50 kg. But we also need equipment. I think, the usually didn't use concrete but they fixed them somehow in the rocks. If we use concrete, we also have to carry water - or take it from Plakias and Katastromeno cisterns. Spring would be a good option (regarding water).
One major question is the painting of the poles....

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Helicopter:
The link http://www.helialpha.com works for me.
I would consider it as an option if we see during the planning that another transport method is too time-consuming/difficult.

Concrete:
Using concrete seemed a good idea to me when I remembered where I had seen the E4 poles.
Somehow they tend to disappear from their original position and magically appear in fences of sheep pens. :wink:
We only would have to carry ready-mix concrete and take the water from the cisterns.

Poles:
If we can't find a source in Crete (I'll have to ask around) then my idea is to buy it in Germany and transfer it to Crete by car.
I'm almost sure that I could do it with my car for pole lengths up to 2,5 m.
Also painting (even powder coating) would be no problem.
But just to get me right: The better solution would be to help the greek economy by placing an order for delivering painted poles!

Best wishes
Michael

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Helicopter:
OK. Yes, we will consider it as an alternative to a transport via Pick-Up from Askifou. Depending on the number of participants and depending on the weight.

Concrete:
Yes, it would be safer :wink: and more professional to use concrete. A ready-mix would make it fairly easy.

Poles:
Economically, it would be better to buy and coat them in Crete. I assume they should be available somewhere in Chania. I will ask my friend Manos from the EOS - he is really good in organizing.

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Karl-Heinz from Schwabach has sent me some more details:

- There are two alternatives, either steel (galvanized) or aluminium. The second material has the advantage that the colour will be more stable on it. That means we should probably go for that. Additionally, we would then have the advantage of less weight.
- The proposal is to take poles with a length of 3 m. The diameter will probably be around 1 1/4 inches (ca. 42 mm) or maybe 1 1/2 inches.
- The costs for the poles is not too high. It will be around 350 Euros for 30 3 m-poles.

The major problem will be to stably anchor the poles. It would be good to "dig" for about 0,5 m by means of an electrical(?) drilling bit. But I am afraid that the batteries won't last for too long. Is concrete enough or which other equipment do you suppose we will need?

Best wishes
Simon

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Re: New markings and "New" path on Kastro

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Hello,
after searching the net and asking around I fear the digging will be the hardest part or this project.
If we only would be faced with ordinary soil we could use a manually operated soil auger.
But for the areas with stones or even solid rock I have found no (easy to carry/operate) solution. :oops:
Just for the records: Manual chiselling of 50 cm deep holes in solid rock is not an option! :wink:
Best wishes
Michael

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